Skywind, Project Contingency and Nostalgia as a whole,

So the title might seem a bit vague... two fanmade overhaul-mod/full-game things and the mention of nostalgia. What does this mean?

I have recently started following the Skywind overhaul mod for Skyrim. The purpose of the mod is to bring the world of Morrowwind into the Skyrim engine and, by the looks of it, breath new life into it. I'll admit that Morrowind had a helluva lot of problems, the combat being the most obvious, though AI or lack-thereof and the limitations of the engine at the time are pretty big ones too. Things that Skyrim's engine could easily fix simply by bringing the older game up to speed so to speak.

On the forums, I found a post which said;

I think the Skywind community has a love for Morrowind, and it's why most of us are here in the first place.  We're not like some hollywood producer that's capitalizing off of a nostalgic title *cough* Michael Bay *cough*.  I don't think the magic of Morrowind lies in it's environmental layout.  I think It's in the narrative, atmosphere, and challenge.  The esthetic hasn't changed, and neither has the story or atmosphere.

What does this mean? Well to me, that seems to be saying that these sort of fan-projects are "made by fans, for fans". People loved a game or series so much that they had to contribute something to it.

So what does Contingency have to do with any of this? Simple, Contigency is a fanmade game aimed towards fans. I got here through a Halo page on Facebook, I'm assuming most of you guys did too or through word-of-mouth of the Halo community some other way. The point there being that this isn't being advertised on every T.V channel and on the back of every packet of Doritos or bottle of Mountain Dew; Project Contingency is seemingly aimed at Halo fans, not new audiences, therefore it fits with the idea of nostalgia in games.


Is there a point to this thread? Primarily I wanted to rant, but yes there is a point. I find that most games these days do not have the same effect as older games do... maybe that is me going through college and not having time to appreciate the games thoroughly enough to get hooked though. I do find, however, that many older games captivate audiences better than new ones. You have old games that fans constantly go back to for the nostalgia and then you have new games being released every year because people get bored of the last one...

This is important to me as a game-developer, so I want you guys and girls to tell me... What makes you want to go back to a game from years/decades ago? What makes you want to hook up these relics they call consoles and play a game that you've completed 32 times before? What makes a game fun 20 or 30 years after their release?

Personally I find old games much easier to digest and have fun with. Now I play a lot of games such as Doom 2, Painkiller, Rise of the Triad, Half Life 2/1, Halo: Custom Edition, Castlevania, Dawn of War and such. One thing I prefer from these games that I don't find a heavily complex story. Most of the time it is very easy to piece together the bits and see the world for what it is. I think that is what I majorly enjoyed from old school games as this is more likely to happen there. That's not to say I can't enjoy a complex story but I find most of the time they come off as silly and sometimes conflicting. If you see the games one thing you can probably notice is characters that are often blank slates or at least in the games they are. This allows me to easily place myself in the boots of that character which makes the experience all that more fun for me. When I get a complex story everything is laid out for me. They can become predictable and downright annoying. I thought the added personality to Chief in Halo 4 was very unwelcome. After mowing down thousands of my enemies like a bringer of death I get this emo in a suit character spouting off. You are free to disagree with me but that is how I felt about Chief.

I think the most important thing to remember is that it is not the game alone that keeps people coming back but the community. Look at the many examples like Doom 2. It's been 20 years and that game still has a strong modding community which I dare say ranks among communities like that of Halo: Custom Edition and Killing Floor in terms of modding. The community is the main aspect that will keep your game on its feet when you are long gone.

You have a point. Primarily, I think the reasons are twofold-there are mechanics differences, and of course you have your nostalgia reasons.

As far as older mechanics go, games were simpler but harder. I mean, in the average cod, you can blaze through the campaign using all ten buttons (not counting dpad or analog sticks) on a couple tries while harder difficulties of most nes-snes games has a... kind of... idk. It makes things easy to get into and hard to master, and we find that rewarding. As opposed to today, where the primary target is other players, which has its own advantages and disadvantages. I think we can all agree that fighting a computer boss is much different from fighting another human player in a match of Halo or whatever. I'm not saying all games today are easy, but the truth is, the more we add to our games, the more complex they become, we lose more of something we can't really discern. It's what makes games like Super Meat Boy or BitTrip (I think, haven't played either lol) engaging as opposed to Dark Souls. Things fall into a routine with today's games, it's about mastering the mechanics, and if you are clever you can get the job done easier, but in older games it tends to be mastering new challenges, and the mechanics are tools to get you there. You must understand the mechanics and that's easy because they are so simple. Take Mario, you jump on things that aren't spiky, hit question blocks, can go down pipes, and run to the right. You end up encountering new enemies, new scenarios like bullet bills coming from offscreen, and if you don't know how to use every ability you have you are screwed. Take a newer game, like, Halo 4, or rather every halo game perhaps, and you spend the entire campaign doing different things but in the end you are killing covenant (or perhaps prometheans or the flood) with the strongest available weapon and increasing your skill (which may net you a stronger weapon or a vehicle [ahem, hijacking a banshee is difficult but rewarding]) but there aren't very many new puzzles. I mean, you have to attack enemies in ways that prevent them from all surrounding you, but in older games like megaman the beauty after the mechanics is each stage has its own traps to master.

So what I'm reading right now is that community is important (clearly, but you still make a fair point) and providing new challenges throughout the game?

I think so. Older games use simple mechanics that you have to understand to solve the puzzles. Newer games use complex mechanics that you improve at using over the course of the game, and puzzles, if any, are either trivial, like which enemies to attack so they don't all rush you. Granted there are exceptions.

New vs old game design is radically different, I think. You should probably decide what you are aiming for before starting a project.

Heatguts wrote:I think so. Older games use simple mechanics that you have to understand to solve the puzzles. Newer games use complex mechanics that you improve at using over the course of the game, and puzzles, if any, are either trivial, like which enemies to attack so they don't all rush you. Granted there are exceptions.

New vs old game design is radically different, I think. You should probably decide what you are aiming for before starting a project.

Agreed, though its hard to start any project without deciding on multiple factors before even beginning.

And yeah, a lot of the puzzles you find in modern games (excluding puzzle-games) are ridiculously trivial. Thought-provoking for a moment but too easy to solve.
Example:
Skyrim, you turn statues so that their icons correspond to those on a wall.
Morrowind, you're given a riddle which gives you the answer... the answer in which is to let yourself drown to unlock a door.

Heck, even old RPGs had more "puzzle" to them. Look at D&D mechanics, the entire game requires a player to delicately balance their attribute points to create the perfect character for their class. Modern RPGs usually just involve improving your skills over the course of the game; like you said "mechanics that you improve at using".

I'm actually considering creating a game that relies more on old-school D&D mechanics and rolls rather than the common "hit the hitbox" types. Thoughts on that?

Might be kinda interesting. How exactly would it play? As in a full-fledged graphical rpg? Regardless, you'd need an interesting way to introduce the mechanics for non-dnd players.

I guess for something like that, you'd want a freeness in battle so you can analyze an enemy's attack patterns and take them down in clever ways, and plenty of puzzles that lead to slightly OP swords for the expected level. Also, because I never seem to find an rpg where this isn't an issue, don't hand out 15000 gold pieces for going from town b back to town a to buy a new helmet.